Lauren Martin

Interview by Madeleine Dore

Lauren Martin: Writer

Full transcript

“You don’t create without extreme pressure. I think you need pressure inside yourself, whether it’s anger or fear or a little bit of anxiety that prompts you to do something with that feeling.”
– Lauren Martin

Madeleine Dore: When we spot a weakness, a pressure, a tension, or a negative emotion within ourselves, it’s tempting to try to eradicate it or improve ourselves to a point that it’s no longer traceable. But in sanding off our edges, we only serve to dull ourselves or our experience with the world.

The thing is emotions aren’t inherently negative. We only render them so. What if you used your anxiety or fear as a guide? Or your restlessness as a motivator? Your procrastination as a sign to let go or to wait?

When we make space for these so-called bad feelings or bad emotions and tensions, we can see where they might lead. 

For me, if it weren’t for comparison or this so-called sinister emotion of envy, I wouldn’t actually have this project. Comparison is actually the driver for my own creativity. It is the base for my curiosity. I want to know how others do it, and then fold that learning into my own days and my own creative process.

In accepting these emotions and feelings and tensions, I really do believe that we make room for wonderful things to be cultivated. 

This weeks’ guest, in my opinion, has cultivated something truly wonderful. Lauren Martin is a writer and the founder of Words of Women, a labour of love she started when she was searching for something to help herself, and other women, who were feeling lost.

I really felt like I was bursting to talk to Lauren. Words of Womenis one of my favourite Instagram accounts and also one of my favourite newsletters and blogs, and it really provides an antidote to the toxicity that can sometimes come with being in online spaces.

The message I really get from Words of Women and Lauren’s writing, and even the quotes that she so carefully and artfully curates, is that we’re okay. Even with the pressures and the tensions and the so-called bad feelings.

It was incredibly special to speak about the themes in her project, which has also now culminated in a book, which will be out later in the year, as well as really dive into the intricacies of self-initiated work. 

We speak about searching, stagnation, striving, and falling behind, or perceiving that we are. We talk about flat days and good days, social isolation, how routine helps when you’re in a rut.

We also speak about comparison, the tension between being a night owl, but being clearest in the morning with our writing, and also a subject that’s quite near and dear to me. How personal projects can help get us through a rut, and that’s fittingly how Routines & Ruts, this podcast, was born.

So here’s Lauren, sharing how she felt lost after a period of burn out, but how that was actually the catalyst for starting Words of Women. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Lauren Martin: I was 24. I had just quit my job at Elite Daily. I had been working there as a writer for three years and I did very well. It was an unknown publication, then we became known. I started there with ten writers and I wrote, I think, 1000 articles while I was there. I was completely burned out after three years.

The Daily Mail bought us, and I just couldn’t do it anymore. I was so tired of writing why girls who wear glasses are hot. I just couldn’t. So I quit. But I didn’t have a plan, which you don’t really do in New York, but I had enough savings for six months to figure out what I wanted to do next, which I don’t know if it’s going to be writing. I was burned out and I want to write for myself.

So I lived in this artist loft in Bushwick, completely isolated, and I just threw myself into painting like I used to, and writing, journaling, just wondering around the city, getting my love back for the city in life, and that’s when I was like, I really want to write a book. And I want it to be a book about women. But not about women in a feminist way, women just as women. What our thoughts are, what we’re feeling.

I can’t be the only one who has these doubts of emotion, and I’ve always been into quotes, so I just started the platform just to be like, I wonder if other women resonate?

And the Instagram grew, because women love the quotes, but I started wanting to write again and I started the newsletter, and I was really wanting to write a Words of Women book. I couldn’t get an agent and I couldn’t get a publisher, and you can’t get a publisher without an agent. So I was like, screw it, I’ll just make Words of Women my own brand and, when I’m ready, I will self-publish a book on Amazon.

So four years, fast forward, now a publisher has come to me, and an agent, and they’re like, we want to make a Words of Women book, so it kind of went full circle and I had completely kind of forgotten about the book.

MD: Isn’t that amazing?

LM: It is.

MD: Congratulations.

LM: Thank you.

MD: Because that’s no small feat to have people come to you. I would love to circle back just a little bit to that six-month time because I think it’s a [inaudible 06:34] experience to sort of recognise that you need a break, you need to put space into your day. 

But I’ve had this experience personally where I’ve given myself that time and then anxiety just bubbles up because there’s no structure, and it’s that crisis of, what am I doing? Am I allowed to be giving myself this time? So did it take a little while to get into the doing nothing rhythm, if that makes sense?

LM: Oh gosh, yes. Yeah. And I think that’s where Words of Women was really born. I was so nervous about what I was doing and why I had these feelings because I was alone and I felt like, did I make a huge mistake? So I needed these strong women to be like, look, go after your dreams, or it’s okay, this is how you’re supposed to be feeling, and it was just the everyday quotes that picked me up. 

But I totally felt guilty all the time. But I think, and I still believe this, you don’t create without extreme pressure. I think you need pressure inside yourself, whether it’s anger or fear or a little bit of anxiety that prompts you to do something with that feeling.

MD: I guess timeline-wise, when was Words of Women in that six months? Was it from the get-go?

LM: No, I would say it was three months in.

MD: That’s good to know. It needed warm-up phase.

LM: Yeah. I mean, I was totally lost. I was really painting a lot, but it just felt good. I was dating at the time, so I’d be stressed out half the day about a guy not texting me.

MD: That can be another whole creative obsession distraction, can’t it?

LM: Oh my god, that can take up so much time. I was reading, I was journaling. I mean, I was going around the city. I was spending money, I was spending money on crystals. I was lost. I was like, what do I want to do? What is my passion? Because I felt burn out, so burned out, and I needed to refuel.

I actually, come to think of it, did not really feel that guilty. If I were to take that time today, I probably would. Back then, I think I was a lot freer at 23. It felt like I had time. I didn’t feel like I was missing out, whereas now it’s like competition. Where are my peers at this age? At almost 30, I feel like time is really important. Well, we make it important. And back then, I felt like I was okay.

MD: I love your work, precisely because it touches on so much of this idea of comparison and how our self-esteem is woven into that. One of the first things I do when I find out, if I’m impressed by someone’s work or it really resonates, is I Google how old they were when they wrote it or try to figure out where I am on their trajectory, which I realised is just so depleting of my own self-esteem and my own self-worth. So how do you balance? Obviously putting out some really comforting material, but then having that comparison experience yourself?

LM: I mean, it’s hard. But I’m happy I have these moments. I think, for every bad thing that happens to you, there’s always something good that comes out of it and I believe, as an artist, every single bad emotion or feeling or bad habit or whatever you do that you’re not happy about is great for your work.

The fact that I am highly insecure, the fact that I compare myself, the fact that I’m judgmental but also insecure is really interesting to me, so then it gives me something to write about. Because when I’m happy, I can’t write. I’m just like, ah, who cares?

But when I’m sad or insecure, I feel like I’m touching things that need to be spoken about and try and figure out why I’m feeling that way. And that’s when the good writing comes. When I’m searching for something. I don’t think we really search when we’re happy.

MD: Yeah, it’s interesting. You’re making me question the last time that I was truly content and not searching. It’s interesting because I think that everything that you share seems to be quite personal, but it’s so universal as well. It’s the only way that you know… well, what’s your feelings when you’re about to share, especially your own writing?

LM: I just posted today. For me, Words of Women was born in darkness and in feeling isolated and alone, and that is always the feeling I’m posting in. But now that I have a bigger following, it does feel good to know that what I’m about to share could even hit, I mean not everyone feels sad all the time at the same time, but it could hit the two women who are.

Today I posted that I had the most annoying thing happen at work. It’s just one of those things. It’s not a huge deal, but it’s frustrating and I feel bad and I want to yell, and I just need to find a phrase or make up a phrase to calm me down and then share it because I’m like, there’s got to be another girl out there who feels this right now, and that motivates me.

MD: Yeah, it’s feeling connected to other people. I keep going back to that six-month period because I find it so interesting. When did you then step back into a day job or full-time work?

LM: This launched a period of great unrest for me. God, the next three years, and I really think this is why Words of Women took off, the next three years were terrible. The media landscape is a difficult landscape. Being a writer in today’s day and age is difficult. It’s very competitive, and the types of people in it, it can be very… how do I explain this? A little pompous. I’m not like that.

I’m not very showy about my work, I also don’t reach out a lot. I just got any job I could. The first job I could get, which was marketing at Verizon, so random, it wasn’t great. It was fine. Being back in the swing of that, though, was hard and after being there at the Verizon bought Complex and I was like, please send me there, please send me there, it’s more my vibe.

They did send me there, and that was okay. I wasn’t writing what I wanted to be, and I was also doing some marketing. I was losing a lot of weight. That whole six months couldn’t have led to this. I mean, I’m back where I began. I’m not happy, I’m completely stifled creatively, and then I got another job.

I just kept searching and it was four years of searching, and Words of Women was the only thing that kept me afloat. I was like, okay, I have Words of Women. And there was a certain point when I was really stressed out and working on the newsletter and my mom was like, why aren’t you giving this up? What are you doing this for? It’s been four years.

I was like, this is the only thing that brings me peace and I believe that, if you stick with something long enough, something must happen. 

MD: Persistence and perseverance has paid off because you are writing a book. I’d love to go into your day-to-day in a moment, but when you were with full-time work or in between these different jobs and you did have Words of Women as a labour of love on the side, how did that fit into your day? There’s so much reading, I would imagine.

LM: Oh gosh. Yeah, I mean, I was getting up at 5am, but I wasn’t waking up angry or annoyed, I was waking up excited. I was like, these are my few hours before work to do that I want to find these quotes or to read and get more, and so I would spend from 5 to 7:30, get on the subway or whatever, and then I don’t think I did as good of a job at work as I could have because I was procrastinating and doing Words with Women.

MD: Oh, right, so you [inaudible 13:56].

LM: Oh, always. I mean, come on, who needs to work for eight hours a day? It’s actually been proven. No one does eight hours of work, but they say what you do when you procrastinate is probably what you should be doing for the rest of your life.

MD: Oh, I love that.

LM: Yeah. I can’t remember who said it, but it was a woman. So that was just there, whatever, have a bad meeting, go back to my computer, then do Words of Women. It was just always there, and I was posting during work, and then I’d come home and start the cycle over. Come home, relax, but also be on Tumbler, be reading, working on the newsletter, and then just keep doing.

MD: Keep going. With getting up at 5am, obviously being excited is a motivator to get out of bed, but have you always been a morning person?

LM: Oh, god, no.

MD: Can you tell me what your advice is?

LM: I think when you love something, you get up. You just do. Like I just knew. I was so driven. I was like Words of Women is the thing in my life and if I’m going to get out of this rut that I’m in, these jobs that I hate, and it’s going to be my job, I have to put in the time, so it just was automatic.

And I just really loved it. I mean, I’m not a morning person. Now I do not get up at 5am. I do on Monday’s to do the newsletter, but I get up more at 7, and that’s a struggle. I’m a night owl. But the problem is, I consider the night’s for dreaming and doing more creative work and the morning for doing more like, okay, here’s my plan for the day, here are the quotes I’m going to do, here’s the ideas I want to have, and just plan it out.

MD: I think you touched on something so resonant there in terms of, when you’re in a rut, sometimes you need a routine to pull you out of it.

LM: Oh, you have to have a routine if you’re in a rut. It’s the only thing that saved me. It gives you some structure to latch onto, like the days don’t feel as long. I can get through work because it’s part of something that’s larger. It’s one part of my routine, it’s not the whole routine. It’s not my whole day.

MD: Yeah, it’s like a little pocket just for you.

LM: Yeah.

MD: I love that. So, how do you, if you’re reading so much and you’re on Tumblr a lot and you’re posting so much, I don’t know if you have a system, but how do you remember what you’ve posted? How do you catalogue? How do you compile?

LM: It’s chaos. I mean, it’s chaos. I have a quote document that, whenever I read something, I usually underline, so all my books are underlined, which makes it difficult because I spend a lot of money on books because when you get them out of a library, you can’t do that. And I like to underline as I read, and I don’t want to stop and write it down, so I put it in a Google Doc and that’s about 180 pages long.

MD: Oh, so it’s got heaps of everything you’ve done?

LM: Yeah, I’ve tried to organise it, for the book especially. I have a sheet and they’re organised by themes, like beauty, family, work, all the different quotes that would fit in those.

MD: Oh, I’m just thinking that all the little boxes would be all these different sizes.

LM: Yeah, it’s ugly to look at, but it works. Everyone used to always say why don’t you get Hootsuite so you can put them up and then they just automatically go, but I’m so against that because I’m very much in the moment. I want the quotes to reflect how I’m feeling, not just like, okay, Tuesday happy quote, Wednesday sad quote. 

I don’t think Words of Women would be where it was if I did it like that. It’s more like I really feel there’s an energy, not to get too spiritual, but there is an energy and I think we are connected by energy. Like if you’re having a bad day, that energy is reflected back to you obviously, because the way you’re acting, people are responding. And I think woman inherently… whenever I feel like it’s a long week, everyone else feels like it’s a long week. 

MD: We wear the world on our shoulders.

LM: Yeah, I just feel like there’s something connecting us. If I’m feeling this way and I’m tired and depleted, there’s a huge possibility other women are feeling that more than the women who are feeling the opposite.

MD: I think there’s something to be said for following personal curiosities, rather than having a rigid content plan. This whole idea of content, rather than it being thoughts and something deep to connect to.

LM: Yes, and I also think that’s also why Words of Women grew rapidly. In this world where we’re constantly being sold to and manipulated, and I came from that world. All right, dogs are trending, let’s do dogs. It’s just like, no. Stop it. Let’s just have a minute of raw feeling and true content and where everything’s not planned all the time.

MD: Yeah, I love how Words of Women really is about saying it’s okay in so many different ways.

LM: Yeah, that’s exactly what it is. I just carry so much pressure, and I can’t let it go, and sometimes you just need a person to be like, it’s okay. I feel this, too. You can feel this heaviness, but here’s a way to maybe let go of some of it. So it’s not always plans to get rid of it, but it’s like I’m carrying it too. We’re both sitting here carrying baggage, and that just feels good sometimes.

MD: Yeah, and we all have our different paces. Something that you wrote recently, I actually have it printed out.

LM: This is one of my favourite articles I ever wrote. I feel like, with all of this, I was having a really dark two weeks. I felt like my career wasn’t going anywhere, the book’s not good, Words of Women stagnating, and then my friend, on the other hand, was like, all this stuff was happening to her and I wanted so badly to be happy. And I was happy for her, but I was also like, am I being left behind? 

“It occurred to me that life was like this. Waves, peaks and troughs, highs and lows. The rhythm of life wasn’t a steady bolt of upward momentum. We’d blaze out if it were. Instead, we get moments. Bursts of magic, bolts of luck and change and opportunity, and then we tread again. We go back to working and striving and dreaming. And just when everything seems like it won’t change, that the new dream or the new goal won’t happen, or the magic that happened two years ago has faded and left for someone else, it comes back.”

MD: So beautiful. So you wrote this a couple of weeks ago?

LM: Mm-hm.

MD: Do you feel like something’s come back to you, or where are you at now?

LM: Yeah, I do. I do. I’ll have a moment where I’ll speak to my editor and she’s really excited and she’ll edit one of my chapters and really like it, or I’ll do a newsletter. It’s where I do a newsletter that I really feel good about. This one I felt good about. The one I think I’m going to write next week I have a good feeling about, but yesterday I felt the newsletter was awful, nothing’s happening, Words of Women is stagnating, I don’t know what I’m doing.

And then I try and remember that. Like today is a flat day, and tomorrow could be a great day, and it’s important to remember that.

MD: It really is. It’s just so hard during the flat days to remember that. It’s easier on the high day to tell yourself that, but I guess you’ve got these beautiful notes to yourself, which is the whole point. So, if you don’t mind us rewinding, when you say the newsletter is awful, as a reader of that newsletter, I can’t believe that.

LM: Oh, god. You should talk to my husband. I feel so bad for him. I just feel like there’s a lot of pressure. There’s 20,000 people that read it. As a writer, usually you take a lot of time and people who have a book, it takes years, and then people read it, but this is instant. 

I know people are expecting something and I feel like I always wanted to convey truth, I want it to be entertaining, and I want it to be enlightening, and those are really hard things to get each time, every week, without it starting to become repetitive and monotonous. It’s a constant struggle of, is this something different? Is it also something that’s going to resonate? How can you have something different and something that feels like it resonates?

So I’m constantly searching and I think everyone knows they’ve done their best work, and I think artists are particularly hard on themselves, so I’m trying to be less hard, but I also think this hardness makes us strive for great art and good writing.

MD: Yeah, every weakness has a strength, and vice versa.

LM: Yeah, like I never write well when I have a good conversation with my editor because I’m like, oh, I’m the best, and I’ll take a day off, and it’s when I start to feel bad and I think that I need to prove myself, I need to prove it to myself, I need to prove it to my editor, I need to prove it to my enemies, I need to prove it to my husband, that I can write this. And it’s only when I’m feeling not capable that I do my best work.

MD: Yeah. I interviewed Austin Kleon, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with his newsletter and writing, he does show work.

LM: He sounds very familiar.

MD: He’s done a few series of books, and he said that we’re all trying to optimise our time, but actually it’s attention’s where great art comes and that’s true of that too. So, with the newsletter then, there’s obviously a lot of internal turmoil, but how much time does it take you? Like you’re putting that out weekly.

LM: I think about it all week. It takes a long time for it to marinate, the topic. Sunday is always a day of pure melancholy mixed with stress, like I’m excited that it’s tomorrow and I get to share my feelings, but I’m usually writing it on Sunday because I’m working and writing on other things all week. Sunday is the day that I give to it, and I’ll lie in bed in the morning, and be like, what am I writing? What am I writing? And whatever ideas I had during the week, I hate. And I have to start over again, all that thinking was for nothing.

And then I’ll come up with an idea and I’ll write it, then I’ll hate it. I’ll have my husband read it, and he’ll be like it’s great, and I’m like it’s shit, I’m done, forget it, I’m not putting out a newsletter. And then I never sleep on Sunday nights. You know when you’re in that first phase, like you don’t hit REM? 

MD: That’s the worst kind of thing because it’s like you’re kind of sleeping, but you’re dreaming that you’re awake.

LM: Exactly. So I was doing that, and I do that every single Sunday night, and then that anxious nervousness wakes me up at five and then I write it, and then I’m scrambling because it’s 8:00 and I’m not done yet, and then I’m going to work and I’m trying to finish it, and then I just have to make myself send it. And then, of course, comes the simultaneous feeling of joy and fear. And then I just move on with my day.

MD: And then the cycle repeats weekly.

LM: Yeah.

MD: Wow, gosh, no wonder you would be exhausted on Monday.

LM: Oh, so I have this big thing where Monday’s… I also try to go to the gym, so I go to the gym Monday, Wednesday, Friday, so I make myself do the newsletter, then I go to my regular job, then I go to work, and then I try and write, and yesterday I just, at 3:00, I had to pour a glass of wine. And I really believe in ego depletion, so that’s it, I’m depleted. My body is done. I have no more power left. I need to now replenish and accept that and not feel guilty about it, so I just put on the TV and said no more work today. You’ve done enough. And I think that’s really important. That took me forever to learn to do that.

MD: Yes, give yourself permission to do that, because otherwise how are you actually going to have space in your head for all you had in your heart, really? That’s nice, I like the 3 o’clock wine.

LM: Oh, I was not ashamed. My husband came home, and I always say, just to let you know, I’m depleted, and he’s like okay, so I’ll stay away, because I get snappy. I’m just not myself. I’m worn thin and he’s like, do you want a glass of wine? I said I’ve already had two, so I can’t do that because I’ll be drunk on a Monday.

But yeah, it’s so important and I think that’s where a lot of my conflict and lowest moments in life came, when I was depleted but wouldn’t honour it and wouldn’t take the time, and then everything in my life just was dark and I wasn’t making good decisions.

MD: Yeah, and I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but it can go the other way when you’re depleted and that one wine does become several, or bottles, and it becomes more numbing.

LM: Yeah, I’ve been down that route. Whisky, wine, whatever. It’s this searching for something to stop the feeling, this feeling of emptiness or restlessness, but the wine doesn’t do anything except covers it, and then, if anything ultimately makes you hungover the next day, then you’re not starting the next day fresh. So sleep has been proven to help restore our willpower. 

This is all scientifically proven. Willpower is like strength and you only have so much throughout the day. If you go to the gym, you can only do so many reps. Your body will not let you do more, or your muscles will break. I mean, I don’t know that stuff.

But I do know that they’re proving… Some people say it’s not true, I’m believing it’s true, that will power is a finite resource and runs out.

MD: Yeah, and if it’s true to your experience of will power, then that’s what we can go on.

LM: Yeah, and so sleep replenishes it, so also that’s why, when people are cranky when they don’t sleep, it’s not usually because of a lack of sleep, it’s because your will power never returned to the level it needed to get so everything seems harder and everything is darker.

MD: That makes such sense.

LM: If it makes sense to you and it makes sense to me, I’m going with it.

MD: Yeah, well, you’ve got to find what works for you, and if that’s sleep to restore your will power, then yeah. Sleep for me is definitely something that… Even if I go to bed after midnight, I feel quite disoriented the next day, so I’m very sleep sensitive, I think.

LM: Yeah, I hate how important sleep is. It’s a big thing in my life because I’m terrible at it. I hate going to sleep. But I can’t function in society if I want to stay up till 2am.

MD: So with the hating going to sleep, how do you get to sleep then?

LM: I’m actually writing about this. It’s been really tough. I was taking NyQuil, which is not good for you, I was taking Xanax. I wanted to be one of those people who could just go to bed and not stay up watching TV, so I’ve really been working on just reframing how I think about sleep. So if you’re going to stay up until 12, fine, stay up until 12, it’s not a big deal. And I think the stress that we put on ourselves about having to go to bed by like 10 because I have to get up at seven is worse for you than not sleeping.

And so I’ve just let myself be like all right, if I need to come and sleep on the couch tonight so I don’t bother my husband and I need to do certain things, then that’s what I need to do. I’m not going to stress about it. 

I try and make the night exciting and soothing, like it’s time for me to read and drink tea.

MD: And what about technology and your phone?

LM: I mean, look, I keep my phone out here. That’s a big thing. The problem is, in the morning, it’s annoying because I always want to know what time it is. I’m definitely going to get a clock soon.

MD: Yeah, that would be the perfect solution.

LM: Simple. The laptop is a problem. I do read before bed, and I’ll read for a half-hour or hour every night, and then I’m scared. I swear that’s what it is. I’m scared to go to sleep, I’m scared of my mind, so I always put something on just to soothe me in the background. I don’t like it, but I’ve been doing it for so long that I’m like, all right, this is your vice, we’ll figure it out later.

MD: Yeah, you’ve got enough that you’re tackling. It’s interesting because I would imagine, even just the way you’re phrasing that week-long cycle of preparing for the newsletter and all that thinking was a waste, and then you’re also scared of your mind, how do you know what to listen to in terms of the thoughts that can be articles or things to share versus what’s scary. Because I’d imagine you actually have to be very intimate with your own mind to come up with what you do.

LM: Yeah, usually the things that flag me and don’t let me go are things I know. There are thoughts I have, like this newsletter coming up, I really want to write about… I hate generational pieces. And that’s the other thing I’m writing about, why do I hate this? I don’t want to write a piece that’s like, our generation is so annoying because we’re like this. But I do think we’re having a generational problem with judgement. We are so quick to judge.

So for weeks I was like, I really want to write something about how I’m so quick to judge. I was talking with my cousin the other week and she went back to school, and then left school, then went back to school, and I asked her, now that she’s graduating and she took out money and loans to get this degree, what are you doing? What’s your plan? And she’s like, oh, I think I’m just going to move to California and just maybe do art and chill. The complete opposite of her degree.

I found myself judging her. But I love her. But I was judging her. And I was like, why am I judging her so much? Like what is this? And the judge was forming other judgements and I’m intrigued by that concept. I think everyone does that. I mean, [inaudible 30:59] small skills and big skills, and I went to go write it and I wrote, and I didn’t like it. And so then I put it away three weeks’ ago and it’s still plaguing me and now I know I have to write it and just figure out the best way to write it.

The one that I just read, that was one where I was upset for like two weeks and I couldn’t figure it out, and I know it’s a good idea when I feel it and I keep feeling it but I don’t know the answer, and so I’m going to have to find the answer in the newsletter.

MD: You’re obviously paying a lot of attention to your interactions with people and I love how you weave through those anecdotes. Do you do journaling to remember these or do you catalogue them the same way that you catalogue what you’re reading? How do you weave all that in?

LM: I try and journal every day. It’s really hard.

MD: Is it stream of consciousness journaling?

LM: It can be both. This one woman said I love the concept of journaling, I absolutely hate looking back and reading my own voice and my thoughts, and I do too. I avoid my journals like the plague, but they do have great insights. So I’ll write news headlines that really affect me and then I’ll write little anecdotes my friends say or maybe something I’ve thought about someone.

But stream of consciousness is more rare for me to really sit down and write out my day and what I’m thinking, but I will be like, okay, my friend Sylvia just told me she has a glass of white wine every morning. That’s crazy and interesting.

And if I have a weird conversation. I wrote something about going to dinner with this girl and it felt very competitive.

MD: I read that piece.

LM: Yeah, and of course my mum was like, does she follow the newsletter? I was like, I don’t know. I don’t know if she knows it’s her. I can’t care at this point. Or I couldn’t write about anything because everyone could read into it and say that’s me and you’re writing about my life. It is what it is.

MD: And it’s very much about how you’re feeling.

LM: Yeah, I mean, if she wants to take it negatively or however. But that is a huge thing, I think, to be a writer you have to actually make an effort to write things down when they occur, or else you will forget them.

MD: I wonder, were you doing this kind of thing when you were writing for Elite Daily? There must have been that churn and burn.

LM: I learned it all from there. That’s the thing, every job, everything, leads to something else. You can learn something anywhere. The worst experiences are usually the best later. Elite Daily taught me to take a germ of an idea and how to spin it out into more and that’s, I think, important as a writer.

But also at Elite Daily, I was doing three articles a day and I wasn’t putting time into it, so now it’s like I’ve gone this opposite way where I’m writing once a week but I’m really trying to take my time with it. So it’s kind of the opposite.

MD: How do you decide on what books to read and what people to look into? How many books a week are you reading?

LM: Oh, god. It’s this weird rabbit hole. I read a lot of The Paris Review and it interviews other writers and what they ask them a lot is who are your inspirations? So if I start with, let’s say, Clarice Lispector and then she talks about her inspiration, I know I’m going to like her inspiration because I like her as an author, and then it’s just like this web. And that’s how I find it and I get really excited when I find a new author who I haven’t read. And then I start with her best quotes, but the best quotes are never on the internet.

I hate that there’s not a good library around here. I belong to it, but if I ever get money, I’m going to donate. They have probably that many [inaudible 34:25]. I try and buy the books, but that gets expensive, so then I just go down a wormhole and try to read articles with them, or anything, interviews of what they say.

MD: I read somewhere that you obviously collect so many quotes, but you have your own, but I guess the most resonant have become mottos. Is that still the case?

LM: Oh, god, yeah.

MD: What are they?

LM: Oh god, okay, so this one’s not a woman. It’s Bukowski, who I love, and who was, in my six month period, I was really just in a Bukowski phase, I was really into poetry, and he has this quote, “Today I will walk in the sun. I will simply walk in the sun.” And it’s so light and it doesn’t seem like much, but I’ll be walking on the street, especially in New York because my street is shady and the other side is sunny, and I’ll be walking with a friend and be like, today I will walk in the sun.

It doesn’t matter what’s happening. It’s shady here, but I’m just going to go into the sunlight for a minute. That’s a big one that grounds me. Oh my god, there’s so many, I’m trying to think on the spot. My mind is like, this is the question you’ve been waiting for your entire life.

Okay, so, I wish they were all women but they’re not. The first one is Hemingway, and it’s, “To hell with them, nothing hurts if you don’t let it.” That’s a big one when I’m feeling like, what did I say? I’ll have a dinner party with people and then always the next day I feel terrible.

Another one is Diana Vreeland, who I love, and she says, “There’s only one very good life, and that’s the life you know, and you make it for yourself.” That’s something when I get caught up at work, my other job, I just remember that, and it inspires me.

God, there’s so many. What are they? Alice Munroe, she had that spark of life. I love that. “Time will pass, these moods will pass, and I will again be myself again.” That’s Kay Redfield Jamison. 

MD: It’s so nice to have these friends in your mind.

LM: I know, it really is. It’s crazy how much I refer to them, it’s kind of sad.

MD: It’s not, it’s beautiful because obviously it resonates with a lot of other people, so thank you for that. It sounds like you have to, in order to be able to read and write and collect, you have to spend a lot of time alone, I would imagine. So you did mention dinner parties and how you feel awful afterwards, but how do you fit in social life or time with your partner?

LM: I’m actually very isolated. It’s a problem. And I try really hard to make myself go out. One, as a writer you just need experiences, and two, I think you’d go crazy if you were alone all the time. So, with my partner, we try and do a date night once every couple weeks’. I mean, we’re together a lot, so I don’t worry about him.

MD: Yeah, you still live together.

LM: Yeah, if anything, we need time apart. But no, with everyone else it comes in waves. Like I won’t see anyone for a month, and I will spend every day alone and I work alone, and then I’ll get three invitations in one weekend and I’ll just take them all and be like okay. Then I feel satisfied, I still have friends, it’s okay.

But I’ve always isolated. Even in high school, I never really was into the party scene. I liked to stay home and watch movies or read. In college, I felt very, very lonely. I had friends, but I didn’t like the culture, like football games and drinking. Don’t get me wrong, I like to drink, but the way people drank.

I’ve always felt like an outsider. Always. And that’s what I’m trying to explore with Words of Women. I don’t want to be an outsider and I know there are things that connect me with people, but I also am just drawn to solitude. But I think you need a good balance, so I do try and make myself, you know, I had people over for dinner the other night and that was nice. But then I always do fear that next moment of I talk too loudly, I said too much, I shouldn’t have said that. And I hate that. I think if I can get over that, I would enjoy going out more.

MD: Interesting. You’ve got that quote to comfort you afterwards.

LM: Yeah, yeah. To hell with them. Nothing hurts if you don’t let it.

MD: Yeah, exactly. But I think also our culture is afraid of solitude, and we call it loneliness so easily. I feel like there’s a bit overlap and, if anything, I have the opposite problem where I run away from my solitude. Even as an introverted person, I know how much I need it for my energy recharge, but I know if I’ve got important work to do and a social invitation comes in, I can so easily just scrap it because I’m afraid of the work. Afraid of actually exploring my mind. And I think that, in some ways similar to drinking too much, it can be sabotage for the work the next day because it’s going to deplete me.

LM: Now that I’m writing a lot more, I have an entire list of quotes about writing and you can become very afraid of work, of what you’re writing, if you step away from it. Going back to it is always very difficult and I think any type of work is like that. The reason we hate going to work on Monday’s is because we just spent two days away from it, we’re not used to it, we have to get used to it again, we only remember the pain of it, we’re like oh, I don’t want to do this.

But there’s a quote and it’s like writing and anything else is a lot like going to the gym, and it’s like, “If you don’t go, you become really scared of it.” It’s this mounting thing you don’t want to do, but if you get yourself in a routine, it’s less scary and you don’t have to think about it as much.

MD: Yeah, it becomes autopilot. I’ve started running and I was running with a friend who’s very experienced and they said, okay, we’re going to stop here. I was like, but I can keep going, and they said, yeah, but if you stop here, you’re going to be so happy with how you felt afterwards that it’ll be more appealing to come back to it. I was like oh, okay. A great metaphor for the creative process.

And so, at the moment, another piece that you’re writing was a little bit about routine, but you were saying how you need to create better rules for yourself.

LM: Yeah. Yeah.

MD: How’s that going?

LM: It’s funny because I write these things in a moment of such dire need and want, and it does sit with me. I’m like, am I listening to my own words? I didn’t want to go to the gym yesterday, but I was like if I don’t go, I’m going to feel bad, and it’s just going to reverberate into other feelings and tomorrow is going to feel worse, so I did make myself go. And I do think you need to set rules and boundaries.

It’s the same with that second glass of wine. And they don’t have to be these big rules, but you have to feel like you have control of yourself, because I think that’s where a lot of these feelings of anxiety come from. Like if you can’t control your mind and you can’t control your own life, how are you ever going to control anything else outside of it? You can’t. But if you can control yourself, then at least you feel at peace. Like okay, I know I can resist that temptation. 

And it’s so easy to ignore our own rules, but that’s really when I think feelings of self-hatred come in, when we ignore our own rules that we set for ourselves. So I’m working on that little by little.

MD: So I guess if we were to return to your current days, because it was nice to hear your routine when you were in full-time work, and now you’ve got part-time work and book writing, so what kind of rules do you have, or how are you shaping your days depending on that?

LM: A routine was imperative when I got the book deal because there was a deadline, there was a certain amount of words to be written, and there’s only so much time in the day. There’s only so much I can get out in a day of myself. Like I could have eight hours in front of me, but I’ll really only get two to three hours of good writing.

MD: It’s good to recognise that. Sometimes I beat myself up for not filling those eight hours.

LM: Oh, it’s so important. You have to. You have to. And it annoys me too, like my mum will be like, just take a break and then write for the whole day on Saturday. And I’m like, no, I can only write for two hours on Saturday. It’s all my body will give me, it’s all my mind will give me, it’s two hours, two hours every single day, and a lot of writers are like that. They talk about how that’s all they have. Two hours. Some have 14 and I don’t know how.

But I know me, and my best writing is done in that time, so I had to get a routine. So the routine now is get up, I hate breakfast, I really hate it, so I do a smoothie because it’s really important for me to have three meals. I have a protein bar, I go to work. Even though I work at home, I go to a WeWork because I need to get out of the house and that also just gets me feeling like this is work, this is art places. I do work until 12:30. 

MD: This is for your job?

LM: Yeah, my regular job. I stop at 12:30, I eat lunch, I go to the gym, I finish the gym at 1:30. If I don’t go to the gym, like Tuesdays and Thursdays, that’s when I’ll clean the house because I like to have it neat if I’m going to write.

And then, starting at 2 o’clock, I have to have tea, I have to have a candlelit, and I have to have the shades drawn, and that is when I start my process.

MD: Is that like a sensory cue to yourself? The taste and the smell of the candle?

LM: Mm-hm, and I think it’s almost like sleep, like get yourself in the mood. This is my time, I’m excited, I have a list of quotes of my favourite authors talking about writing that I put next to me, so when I’m feeling like I can’t do this or I hate this then I’ll read it, and I’m like okay, put it back down, start again. I also like books all around me, and it’s like my creative safe space.

And then I always stop, even if it’s going well, at 4:30. I do it in the bedroom and I open the door and I come out and have a glass of wine or do whatever I need to start my process of renewing my source, and then I’ll be in a better space to talk to my husband and make dinner and relax.

MD: That sounds nice. And then the evening?

LM: In the evening, I try not to do work, but I do. I’ll go on Tumblr or I’ll read, but then I always watch TV. I love TV, like a good hour or two, and then I read before bed. I’ll sometimes do work in bed until I fall asleep. That’s about it.

MD: And then back up at seven in the morning and rinse and repeat.

LM: Exactly. Yes.

MD: So when’s the deadline then? How long have you got to write the book?

LM: I’ve been working on it a year and I have a month left.

MD: Crunch time. Oh my gosh.

LM: I’ve become very zen in my moment of stress. I’d gone from stress to just, there’s something I can do about it. It is what it is.

MD: What is different at the beginning of the book writing?

LM: It was the scariest moment of my life. I mean, I think I’ve had a lot of awakenings during this process. How do you even begin? I’ve never done this before. I’ve done articles, I’ve done newsletters, but I’ve never written a book. And that is always scariest, especially sending it off to someone. Like my editor, her husband’s a writer, she’s around really good writers. I was losing weight, I was freaking out. I was like, she’s reading this and hating it.

And then the edits come back and it’s fine, and then you say I’m going to do better on this next chapter, and then you just keep doing it and plugging along and, before you know it, it’s been a year and you open your eyes and you’re like, wow, look how much I’ve done.

MD: Yeah, that’s quite methodical, it sounds like.

LM: Yeah, I need a structure routine around chaos, and there’s another amazing quote from a writer, and he says, “Your surroundings must be in order for you to get messy,” so that’s how I feel if I really want to get deep inside the creative process, I can’t have a mess around the house. I can’t have no structure to when these chapters are being delivered. So structure around chaos.

MD: Yeah, I like that. Have you ever had a break since starting Words of Women, like even just a day of not posting?

LM: Yeah, I took a week over last Thanksgiving and I just told everyone. I was like, I’m so depleted. I don’t even know what a good quote looks like, I can’t even read anymore. I don’t know what I’m looking at and I need to step away and re-engage in society and re-engage in my feelings, and because you get so wrapped up in it, I’m like anyone who’s talking, is that a good quote? Is that a good thought?

And it’s like I’m not interacting, and I think it was not good for the platform, it wasn’t good for me, so I took a week off. And I want to do it again.

MD: I think you’ve earned it. Are you feeling that again?

LM: Oh, I’m feeling it. I’m feeling very, like, I don’t make good decisions when I’m like this, I can’t see straight, I can’t see straight anymore. So I need to get back.

MD: Before we started chatting, you mentioned that you had imposter syndrome, and I’m just wondering about that. What in particular? As a writer? As a person?

LM: It’s really debilitating. It’s like everyone feels bad in their worst moments, fine. We’re used to feeling bad, especially women, but it’s the good moments. The moments when you’re doing work and you’re creating, or you’re doing something, this little thought pops in. My editor went this was amazing, amazing, loved this writing, loved this chapter, goosebumps. And I’ll feel good for a second then I’ll be like, maybe she’s not a good editor, and maybe she’s just saying that to make me feel good because it’s actually bad. Maybe she’s comparing me to a really, really novice writer and it’s good for a novice?

And it’s like, why am I taking this beautiful compliment, this moment, and all of a sudden, I feel unworthy? How did I just go there? And that’s imposter syndrome, 100%. The inability to ever feel satisfied with myself and my own worth, and it’s just always finding a reason that I’m not good enough or I shouldn’t be doing what I’m doing.

MD: But as you say, that also comes with drive.

LM: Yeah, that is, but I think it’s hand-in-hand. I think perfectionism is inherent in a lot of creative people. You’re searching to get to that best thing that you can do. But imposter syndrome is much more debilitating, and I’ve had moments where I just don’t want to write because I’m not as good as these authors, I’m not as good as these. That’s just not good for you.

MD: Yeah, that comparison. Well, I’m comparing myself to you in this moment because I’ve been doing a project for five years and I’ve been extremely ad-hoc with when I release an interview, with when I write an article. My newsletter, I’ve gone through so many iterations of, this is weekly, weekly-ish.

LM: Yeah, I’ve done that.

MD: Fortnightly. Oh, oh, now it’s every three months. And I’m wondering if you have advice in terms of sticking to regularity or consistency in creative work?

LM: Yeah, I think creative people get very excited and want to do a million projects, and I was the same way. If you’ve been following, you probably have seen that I’ve been like, we’re going to do submissions every week and contents and, oh my god.

MD: Well it’s good to know that it doesn’t sink in as a reader.

LM: Oh, thank god, because I think about it and I’m like, god, these poor people will be like, who is this maniac who one day has an idea and tell us. So first off, the readers aren’t paying that much attention, so don’t ever feel bad for doing it.

MD: Yeah, exhibit A.

LM: Yes. Two, that’s your creative right, to have an idea and try it and it doesn’t work, or you can’t keep up with it. I mean, if you don’t try, it’s okay. You’ll eventually know, I can do this. And I think when you’re younger, when I was younger, I definitely had a lot of ideas and ambitions and I wanted to do a million things and, now that I’m a little older, and I’ve always believed this, do one thing and do it really well. 

And the newsletter was all I could do, was all I could handle. All these other things, and I want to do them, maybe if I have help one day, but me as a person, I know my limits, it’s just going to be this one thing. And even when I get an idea, I need to be like, okay, that’s a good idea, and maybe one day I’ll do that, but for now I’m going to write it down so I don’t forget it, but I can’t handle it.

MD: Yeah. That’s really good advice.

LM: Thanks.

MD: I sometimes look at my to-do list and my idea list and internalise it as failure because I haven’t done those things, but actually it’s something to be excited about. I have good ideas to look forward to.

LM: Yes, exactly. Exactly. You’ll have the time eventually, but for now, focus on the one thing that you can do in the moment.

MD: This conversation with Lauren was actually a few months ago when I was in New York City moving out of my own rut and using these conversations very much as a guide. So much has stuck with me from that visit to Lauren’s apartment, but perhaps most prominent is hearing her quote Bukowski.

“Today I will walk in the sun. I will simply walk in the sun.”

I remember leaving her apartment and choosing the side of the street that was the sunny side. It was such a simple act and something I hadn’t really considered in my day-to-day life, but I really feel like it represents so much in terms of the simple choices we often have available but might ignore.

I’m definitely someone who pays a lot of attention to my own weaknesses, my own gaps in my skill or my flaws with my projects, and so this really is such a reminder to focus on the things that might have a bit more glimmer. The shadows will always be there, but we can actually choose to see those rays of sunshine.

I ended this conversation asking Lauren what one small thing was bringing delight to her days, and it’s perhaps no surprise that her response was delightful.

LM: I think it’s important to find an activity that fulfils you but doesn’t drain you because even creative work can be draining. Like making dinner can be exhausting. But there’s something about cooking I’ve liked, and I think it’s because it’s very precise, I’m just following a recipe, but I’m creating something. My mind can be turned off, and then I get to enjoy that thing in an hour, in two hours, tomorrow. 

And the whole experience is very soothing. It’s meditative for me. And I think everyone needs to find that one thing because I don’t think TV fills it anymore for me, and I think I’m one of those people who likes to do things, and I think, as I spoke about, you need a place to let go of the day. And I think it could be going to the gym, which a lot of people do, and that’s such a healthy, healthy ritual.

Mine is not that. I try and add that into my routine, but I don’t consider that a ritual. I think a ritual is something that is sacred and that you really can turn your mind off and enjoy and it could be cooking, it could be painting. It should be something that gives you peace and contentment but doesn’t require too much energy.

I told my husband this the other night, what was the best thing that happened to you today? And he said something to do with work, what was yours? And mine was, honestly, getting out of the shower to a fresh towel. And I think cleaning has become also a thing, so I like to keep my things, Joan Didion is like this, I like things to be in order and, to me, the little things like taking care of something. Like I like to water my plants, I like to do my wash now.

There’s something about taking care of my things, which is taking care of myself, and it gives me an energy. And keeping my house clean, and I enjoy cleaning my house, and I enjoy making my bed now every morning, because when I’m weak, I can feel the love in these things. Like, oh, look at this bed, it’s made for me, and I made it for me. And this towel is clean and fresh, and it just adds to my experiences in life. 

I feel loved and taken care of and renewed.